Capturing Rhythm, Emotion and Movement with Chloe Ramirez
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[00:00:00]
[00:00:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Chloe, you are, on the other side of this wonderful country that we are in.
[00:00:35] Chloe Ramirez: I am.
[00:00:36] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: at least for now. Apparently you're headed my way really soon, but not quite here, but north of me. but we'll be in the same time zone for a little bit apparently.
[00:00:44] Chloe Ramirez: Yes, we'll be on the East coast with the cold weather and the rain.
[00:00:49] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: oh man. Is it, I mean, I'm sitting here. my, in my office wearing a hoodie 'cause it's so cold. And got, I had like one week where I was able [00:01:00] to turn the heat off in my house and now it's back on again.
[00:01:03] Chloe Ramirez: my gosh.
[00:01:04] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I'm so done with this
[00:01:05] Chloe Ramirez: Well visit us in California. It's gonna be like 80 today.
[00:01:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh man, that'd be so nice. That'd be so nice.
[00:01:11] Capturing Movement and Emotion
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[00:01:11] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so, so you are known for, creating really emotional. Movement driven images. And before we even dive into music, how would you describe the feeling that you're chasing when you pick up your camera?
[00:01:27] Chloe Ramirez: like you said. I, I really prioritize movement and feeling. I've always just been one of those people that I don't wanna just photograph a good portrait. I want someone to lean in and really dissect the photo and get curious about it. And I'm a really curious person as a human. So for me, part of my workflow is talking to my clients, getting to know whoever's in front of my, my camera so that I can.
Essentially fall in love with them a little bit because when you care about someone, you're always gonna go the extra mile. You're always going to [00:02:00] make sure that they are seen correctly. and a lot of that has to do with how they perceive themselves. I'm sure a lot of us have taken photos where we go, oh my gosh, this is such an amazing photo.
And your client's like, I hate this because we didn't. We projected our vision onto them. So that's in a nutshell, kind of what I like to do with my clients.
[00:02:21] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: That's awesome. I, I, I can tell that, two simple examples of names that many people will recognize. Recently, I think you and Elena both teased. photos that you just did for Elena. they were very much her and you at the same time.
[00:02:41] Chloe Ramirez: Yes.
[00:02:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And it's very interesting that you have to know you and you have to, or your work.
Right. And you have to know her to really see that. as somebody who knows both of you, it's very obvious.
[00:02:54] Chloe Ramirez: Oh, that makes
[00:02:55] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: interesting.
[00:02:56] Chloe Ramirez: so happy to hear
[00:02:58] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. And, at the same [00:03:00] time. You did? I don't, I don't remember where this was. It might have been one of Elena's mastermind retreats. the photos of summer in the
[00:03:09] Chloe Ramirez: that was from her mastermind. Yes.
[00:03:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Okay. So again, very much you, but that like, vintage personality of summer.
[00:03:20] Chloe Ramirez: Yes. Yeah, she has this, and it was funny because we collaborated on a post, right? Which it really took off when we did that, but she was kind of hoeing and humming, like, oh, I'm a more film aesthetic and my work is really punchy and high contrast. And she's like, I'm just gonna share it. It's me. I'm like, you should, and worst cases, you just take it down and it,
[00:03:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
[00:03:37] Chloe Ramirez: blew up.
But I think it is like the, the essence of summer, like she's kind of quirky, you know? like you said, there's like a vintage element to it, and it's just. You don't have to change your style as an artist to be able to properly document someone.
[00:03:53] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. And, and you, you did a good job of getting her personality and her style into it, but at the [00:04:00] same time, keeping your, Color, aesthetics and punchiness of your work, your lighting, everything. It's, it is just, yeah. So, I love, I love that it's, this collaborative effort
[00:04:13] Chloe Ramirez: It's, if it's not collaborative, I don't want it. I'm like, there's only so much of like. Artistic, you know, stuff I can pull from myself. So a lot of the inspiration comes from just really seeing whoever's in front of me and getting to know them.
[00:04:27] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah. speaking of getting to know. People.
[00:04:31] Music Roots and Influences
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[00:04:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: you've told me that music, plays an important part of your life, and I want to know relationship with music growing up. What, what was that role during that time?
[00:04:45] Chloe Ramirez: Oh.
[00:04:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: where did music come from for you? Yeah.
[00:04:48] Chloe Ramirez: How, how long do we have? I say that like photography is like my. Love. I love it so much. But my first love was music and [00:05:00] I was raised by a dad who was a musician. He is a pianist, classically trained as well as an amazing vocalist. And my mom was also an amazing vocalist and a painter. So I don't think I could escape creativity if I wanted to.
I, I always say I am like, so glad you didn't birth a, a rocket scientist, mom, dad. 'cause you know, I don't know like how they would've fostered that. They always just. There was always music playing, whether it was my dad or music on the radio or in the car, just constantly blasting it.
[00:05:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:34] Chloe Ramirez: sidetrack really quick.
When I drive other people's kids in my car, like my kids are used to it, we like blast the music and we. Play the same song on repeat until we can't stand it anymore. And I, I've had kids in the car go, oh, can we turn it down? I, I can't, I can't talk. I'm like, just yell, just yell over it. But it's, it's really funny.
Like, that's how I was raised and the time raising my kids now is, you gotta love music. I, it's such an important part. I mean, it carried me through like dark [00:06:00] times in my teenage years, you know?
[00:06:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah.
[00:06:03] Chloe Ramirez: and even now, there's not a day that goes by that I'm not like blaring my music.
[00:06:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So, so I have to know, because you brought this up, growing up when your parents were playing music in the car, what was the music that was, that was playing? And so also related, what are you playing?
[00:06:22] Chloe Ramirez: Oh, I love this.
[00:06:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: now.
[00:06:24] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah. okay, we'll start with my dad. So he had this Camaro and my parents were really poor growing up. And I remember the, he worked at a dealership and I remember the day he came home with the Camaro. My mom was pissed. She was like, are you kidding me? And he's like, I deserve this, blah, blah, blah.
And he had like a little moment. He, we didn't keep the Camaro that long, like my mom won eventually. 'cause you know, finances are finances.
[00:06:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right.
[00:06:45] Chloe Ramirez: I remember sitting in the back, it was a four seater car. We had five. People in our house. And my mom was mad about that. Like we can't even fit everybody in the car.
But the speaker was right here 'cause I was little and we would drive the back roads and my dad would play more than a feeling by [00:07:00] Boston. And I just remember thinking like, this is the best song ever created. And my dad was so cute growing up, he's gonna listen to this and be like rolling his eyes. But he used to say Boston was way ahead of their time.
But now looking back like I don't know that they were, I just think we really liked that song growing up.
[00:07:15] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
[00:07:16] Chloe Ramirez: But my dad was very much classic rock. I mean, when I was raised on like. Led Zeppelin, Radiohead, basically, thank you mom and dad for amazing, music growing up. And then in the home my mom listened to like Stevie Wonder, Chaka Khan.
So my musical taste is extremely well-rounded because of my parents. Yeah. And even now, like I'm going through a really strong hip hop phase right now, and it's been lasting five years. And my kids notice they're like, you know, like hip hop is like reigning supreme right now in our house. So lately I've been.
Obsessed with ASAP Rocky. That's all I've been listening to. It's ridiculous. The kids are so sick of it. They're like, mom, we need more music. We need different stuff. So that's been fun. and then I also have been going back to like my pop punk roots and I've been [00:08:00] listening to a lot of Paramore lately.
I think it's 'cause that trending audio. all I wanted was you. And so the kids had never heard that song, so they've been loving that as well. But.
[00:08:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh, that's great.
[00:08:10] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah, I'm like the most eclectic music and you know, you hear people say that I listen to everything I like truly do. Stan's country. I don't think I listen to a ton of country, but
[00:08:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I'm, I'm there with
[00:08:22] Chloe Ramirez: yeah, I don't, I can appreciate it.
Yeah. I,
[00:08:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah. I, I listened. So as an adult, I got into Johnny Cash.
[00:08:30] Chloe Ramirez: yes.
[00:08:30] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: here's the interesting thing. My biological father, who was a hobbyist photographer, he died when before I turned two. he's the reason why I use Wyden. he turns out loved Johnny Cash. I did not know this
[00:08:43] Chloe Ramirez: Whoa.
[00:08:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So,
[00:08:45] Chloe Ramirez: you just started playing it randomly.
[00:08:48] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I just, I got, I, I picked up his, his, his, it's not an autobiography, it was a biography that somebody wrote about him, but with him, I forgot what the, whatever those are called.
[00:08:57] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah. Like a ghost writer kind of thing? Yeah.
[00:08:59] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. [00:09:00] Yeah. And it turned out to be my, like, I love books that are about people who live these, like epic lives, lives,
[00:09:06] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah.
[00:09:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and the movies, like the movie about Bob Dylan, the movie about Bruce Springsteen.
I love
[00:09:11] Chloe Ramirez: I have to see the Bob Dylan one. Yes.
[00:09:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: It's so good. and so I read the book and I was like, okay, I have to like really dig into his music and I just fell in love with all of his music. and then of course Walk The Line came out. I had to watch the, that
[00:09:24] Chloe Ramirez: So good. Yeah, and it,
[00:09:27] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, turn turns out my father was into,
[00:09:29] Chloe Ramirez: that's insane. Like that is a really cool story. I love that.
[00:09:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. fun. When I was growing up, my parents, and they still do this, they, it was like Beach Boys and Beatles all the
[00:09:41] Chloe Ramirez: Oh yeah.
[00:09:41] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so like I've heard my epic, my, my, my life's share of Beatles and, and Beach Boys. I can listen to more Beatles, but I'm kind of done with the Beach Boys at this point.
[00:09:51] Chloe Ramirez: Oh yeah. The Beach Boys is like, maybe like the first day of summer and then I'm done. I'm like, I don't need to hear it anymore.
[00:09:58] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: one day,
[00:09:58] Chloe Ramirez: One day. Yeah.
[00:09:59] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: [00:10:00] Yeah. Oh, that's funny. so that's, it's so good that, that you, you grew up just being surrounded by it, and encouraged by both of your parents to really just soak it all up.
[00:10:14] Teen Band Days and Recording
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[00:10:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so I believe that you were in a band at one point.
[00:10:17] Chloe Ramirez: I was, I was so,
[00:10:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: me about that.
[00:10:21] Chloe Ramirez: so in high school, well, first my freshman year, I think I was 15 years old. I had just stacks of notebooks written with lyrics, so I always started with lyrics first, and no, I must have been 14 because when I was 15, I recorded my first demo. And it would be fun to find these demos. Like I know they're somewhere like they, it was before the time where you're like putting them on your computer, like,
[00:10:46] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right.
[00:10:47] Chloe Ramirez: you know, it's like just burn CDs basically.
But I had stacks of notebooks and I told my dad, I said like, I wanna be able to write music and I have melodies in my head. And he's like, you don't have to be. [00:11:00] The best guitarist or pianist too. But you do need to pick one or the other. And I think he was probably hoping, you know, piano, which my daughter is an amazing pianist, so it's living, living on through her.
But for me, I just thought guitar was cool. I was like, okay, I could pick that up and take it with me. It's really portable and he taught me how to play. The, I think it's every guitarist's, and I'm, I'm not a guitarist. I should not even say that in the same sentence as my name. Just so people aren't like, like, can you play that?
I cannot. but it was the Stairway to Heaven lick, like the do, do, do, do that one.
[00:11:32] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right.
[00:11:33] Chloe Ramirez: And. Oh man, I played it so much. My parents were probably losing their minds and once I learned some basic chord progressions, power chords, I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start a band. And I started just like putting melodies to all this music and just marrying the two and.
My parents are the most supportive people on the planet and they paid for me to record a demo up in Seattle. I don't know how we got hooked up with this [00:12:00] producer, but we did. And I remember his studio was in his garage, like he was up and coming to, actually, I should look him up and see where he is at now.
and he was a producer, so like he produced it. And I remember hearing it for the first time, like some of the edits and going. Wow, this is much more like poppy than I was Imagen Editing. And here I was thinking I was like this like cool hard, you know, rock and roll kid. And I'm like, well it actually matched the music what he did.
But I had never heard my music so produced in my life. And I remember thinking for the first time, like, is this me? Do I like this? Do we just get to, you know, say we like it because it was produced by someone. And I remember like having notes as a 15-year-old going like, can we change this? Can we pare it down?
And now Scott, like I hear, I don't know if you've ever recorded before, like I'm sure you have, but I, I hear music in layers. Like I can't, it's not compressed. Everything. I'm like, Ooh, I hear this part or this part. And when you listen to music with someone who's never recorded before, they get to just [00:13:00] enjoy it.
Like, I don't know what it is, but now I just dissect every little thing. and then there became a point when I started just. Playing at coffee shops and I was young, so I couldn't play at bars yet. And I remember thinking like, it's really hard to play and sing. I the people that can play and sing you are like next level musician.
In my head, I, I don't know what it is, but I'm like, I just can't do both. It's really hard. It was fine for songwriting, but it was only gonna take me so far. And so I remember putting a Craigslist ad out when people, I don't know if people still use Craigslist, but I did and we got some weird requests I was looking for.
Basically a full band. And I found my full band on Craigslist. I found my guitarist, the drummer I had already known, and it was just like this, like ragtag team of people. And they were all older than me by like four or five years. And my, my parents were like, okay, well, this is what you wanna do.
Then we just needed to make sure we get to know everybody and like be safe about it. And it just took off [00:14:00] from there. as much as a local band can take off, you know, when someone's in high school.
[00:14:05] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Well, so it did, it only last through high school, did it, it all. You were done performing and playing in bands after that, after high school,
[00:14:14] Chloe Ramirez: I, it was weird if I, I'm kind of one of those people that I need to go all in with something and
[00:14:23] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:23] Chloe Ramirez: if I can't go all in. And especially if I'm doing multiple things, then I lose interest because I know there's like this weird level of perfectionism. I have Scott, and it's so stupid and I know that like I should probably get rid of it.
Like as I'm saying it, I'm like, that is weird that I like just stopped music after high school. But I did. I'm like, the band fell apart. I fell in love with my guitarist. I don't know where he is. If he hears this, that, there you go, man. I was in love with you and it was just like the classic like, oh, this is not gonna work.
This is not gonna happen.
[00:14:55] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
[00:14:56] Chloe Ramirez: But yeah, like I, I kind of had a breakup with [00:15:00] music and I transitioned into just being like a full-time music lover, which I've always been. But yeah, I've, my guitarist reached out recently and he's starting a band and he's like, would you wanna do vocals? I'm like, in another life, that sounds so fun.
But I, I cannot, like, with my work and everything, there's just probably no way, but maybe
[00:15:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Did you ever record with that band or was it only the demo you did?
[00:15:23] Chloe Ramirez: so, yeah.
[00:15:25] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: in the, in the, in the world.
[00:15:27] Chloe Ramirez: In the world. I'm actually gonna look for it 'cause it would be fun to like, I don't know if I could link a song or something. Yeah, totally. yes. So my guitarist and I, the one I was in love with, we like rode up to Washington, we recorded our trucks and then the guitarist and bass couldn't be on that.
So we just hired people over there, which was actually great 'cause like no one was fighting and it was awesome. We were like, by the time we recorded, we were like on our way out. So I think we. We started playing at bars 'cause I was like 17, 18 at the time and I was able to get like a wristband to go play and that was [00:16:00] really fun.
but we were, we were fighting all the time. Like no one, like we had a new bass player and like we had another guitarist that like, just wanted to solo the whole time. It was pretty comical actually.
[00:16:12] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, I mean there's, there's always band, drama and fights
[00:16:16] Chloe Ramirez: Totally.
[00:16:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: on, I was on one of my bands. We were on tour to the Midwest at one point, and. I, I, I am pretty sure our drummer quit while we were literally,
[00:16:27] Chloe Ramirez: Of course he did. Of course he did.
[00:16:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I mean, we had to still get home, but we weren't playing much.
[00:16:36] Chloe Ramirez: What a little diva he is like, I'm outta here.
[00:16:38] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
[00:16:40] Chloe Ramirez: Oh, that's so funny, but also a nightmare. 'cause finding a guitarist relatively easier. There's just more to pull from. I feel like that's the instrument people pick up, but bassist and drummer, I would be like so nervous.
[00:16:53] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, yeah. And you know, it's, it is interesting that you had a choice between piano and guitar and you went with guitar. It's, [00:17:00] it's one of those things, and I, I've, I've brought this up in previous episodes where, I first started out playing clarinet for music.
[00:17:07] Chloe Ramirez: Oh no way. A band kid. Yes.
[00:17:09] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, yeah. ev eventually that, and that's what got me into Berkeley College of Music.
That's amazing.
eventually, switched to bass guitar. And then from there, once I learned bass guitar, taught myself guitar, but all along I could always play a little bit of piano
[00:17:25] Chloe Ramirez: Well, you're a musician, but once you learn like it's like, yeah, you can, yeah.
[00:17:29] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep. I, I, I say it now and I, I tell this to my daughter who's now like at the age of like, do I pick up an instrument or not? if I could go back piano,
[00:17:42] Chloe Ramirez: Everyone says that. Everyone says that. Which I, I think there's always a piano around, right? Like, and I, oh, I, there's so many, like my middle, so my oldest is a jazz pianist and a flute player. Like, again, she can cross like it. Once you have that like mind for it, you can really [00:18:00] just cross instruments and, and then my middle daughter's kind of following my path.
Doing the whole choir kid thing. And sometimes she's like, what's this note? Can I, can you like start my starting note? And I'm like, that's about as far as I can go. But like ask your sister. Like I,
[00:18:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Right.
[00:18:13] Chloe Ramirez: yeah. I am more a singer than anything.
[00:18:16] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. speaking of like identifying notes, Charlie, poof. My God. This guy, he jersey boy.
[00:18:26] Chloe Ramirez: Really? Really?
[00:18:27] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: watch, oh yeah. Did you watch his national anthem at the Super Bowl?
[00:18:31] Chloe Ramirez: Oh my god. It was amazing.
[00:18:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. And he, he, I think, in some interview he said like, he will not try to outdo Whitney Houston, but I, I think he did.
[00:18:43] Chloe Ramirez: Oh,
[00:18:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: he did.
[00:18:44] Chloe Ramirez: it was up there for sure.
[00:18:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
[00:18:46] Chloe Ramirez: Absolutely, absolutely.
[00:18:48] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: the guy is a. He is a marvel. He could sing anything.
[00:18:53] Chloe Ramirez: Powerhouse too. You know, to get those kind of vocals out is amazing.
[00:18:57] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
[00:18:58] Perfection vs Instinct
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[00:19:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so [00:19:00] a lot of photographers focus on technical perfection, but your work feels very intuitive, very natural. when, did you start trusting your instincts before, like following these like rules that exist in photography?
[00:19:17] Chloe Ramirez: This is such, I, I am very happy to have received this compliment from you because as a perfectionist, nothing in my work is. I'm always fighting that inner dialogue of like perfection over. The feeling. Right? And so this, and it's with that, with every, everything in my life, how I style my clothes, how I show up in my everyday.
There's always like this mean monster in my head that's like, oh, it could be better. You know, like my editing, oh, you could go and pull all of these, you know? Hun, thousands of images from your wedding into Photoshop and like just fine tune everything. I'm like, no, Chloe. Like these are fine.
[00:19:54] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
[00:19:55] Chloe Ramirez: so you said like, when, I don't know if I had like a moment.
It's been such a journey. [00:20:00] I've been shooting for professionally for 16 years. 18 years just as a hobbyist. I think I'm always gonna be a hobbyist, but there was parts. What I admire in other people's work is not technically good. It's, it could be the most grainy, blurry photo on the planet. And if I feel something, I'm like leaning in and saving those.
And that doesn't always translate in my work. Like there's still going to be that nerd in me that wants to get it technically correct. Right. I don't think that's going to go away, but because of that. There's nothing wrong with the technically correct. You should learn the rules. Right. But now I get to marry it with my inspiration, which is like, okay, get it right and then relax.
Like loosen your shoulders. Like just go with the flow and be present in the moment. but there wasn't really, I'll have to think about that a little more. There might have been, but like I don't have an exact moment in my head that was like, okay, this is when this happened for me.
[00:20:56] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, you, you definitely like, I think one of the signs [00:21:00] of a, of a professional being able to go with the flow, especially when things work in your favor. And as a photographer who's, you know, quite often shooting outside in environments, there's a lot that's not in your
[00:21:17] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:21:19] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So,
[00:21:20] Chloe Ramirez: as a wedding photographer, like is it ever like, is it ever gonna go, like how I think of it in my head, probably never.
[00:21:28] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:21:30] Timing Like Music
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[00:21:30] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: when you're in the middle of a, of a, of a wedding, if you're in the middle of a portrait session, whatever it might
[00:21:34] Chloe Ramirez: I.
[00:21:34] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: you, do you ever find yourself, like timing moments the way that you would in music where you're just like feeling out it's going and then you know something's coming up because you know, you know what it is you're doing? You've done it before, just like playing the same, you know, or singing the same song. You know, time after time, after time, know it and you [00:22:00] just, you time it
[00:22:01] Chloe Ramirez: Yes,
[00:22:02] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: have that in your head?
[00:22:02] Chloe Ramirez: yes. And I've never had it described that way, especially like related to music. I'm like, oh wait.
[00:22:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Hmm.
[00:22:07] Chloe Ramirez: So I, that's kind of my superpower. Like, I feel like I can time things really, really well. I used to overshoot and not trust that. And then finally I was like, wait, that first photo is always my best photo.
What, what am I doing? You know, like maybe take a second one just in case.
[00:22:22] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah,
[00:22:23] Chloe Ramirez: you know, that key and peel skit where they're like, when does the beat drop? I don't know if you, if you. Watch that. But like, there, it's funny, it's funny, you should watch it, like go on YouTube later. and they're like, when does the beat drop?
And everyone's like, waiting. And, and then that's kind of how I feel like with my work too. It's like, right, when is it gonna drop? Like we're all anticipating, we all know it's happening and I think everyone could probably tap into that. but I do, I wonder if it is like closely related to music and just knowing timing.
I'm sure dancers have that too. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
[00:22:54] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep. there was a, I was shooting a proposal last summer,
[00:22:59] Chloe Ramirez: [00:23:00] Yeah. Timing for you is huge too, with proposals. Yeah.
Yeah. But the really funny thing was the proposal itself was done. We're doing like this mini engagement session after this was on Princeton University's campus. Very, it's very popular request in that I get to do proposals at Princeton. Yeah. That is cool.
[00:23:18] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: a beautiful campus. And, so there's this one wall that is great for doing these sort of wide couple portraits, especially if they have flowers. 'cause then the flowers pop off the wall. and we're, I'm doing the photos and then all of a sudden we hear music. I'm like, what is happening? It was the university's marching band was
[00:23:38] Chloe Ramirez: Oh,
[00:23:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And the, the musician in me
[00:23:42] Chloe Ramirez: yep. Yep.
[00:23:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I, I wanna watch this, but I'm like, the photographer in me is. I have clients that I need a photograph. So, you know, I did, I positioned them in front of
[00:23:50] Chloe Ramirez: Yes.
[00:23:51] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: marching band, photographed
[00:23:53] Chloe Ramirez: That's amazing. They probably love it too, and that's part of their story, right? That timing, like you couldn't [00:24:00] have timed that yourself. Right?
[00:24:01] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. And then of course I made a joke and I said to the, to my client, I was like, that was good planning on your part
[00:24:07] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah. Thank you.
[00:24:08] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: if he made them. Yeah.
[00:24:11] Chloe Ramirez: He is like, I have a cool surprise. I would just lean into it.
[00:24:13] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. Yeah. the way, this is on video as well because my, so this session was on my wife's birthday
[00:24:21] Chloe Ramirez: Oh.
[00:24:21] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: and, I, we wanted, I wanted to take her out for lunch when we had the kids and stuff. So they came and they, they, we pretended that I was photographing my wife and my kids
[00:24:31] Chloe Ramirez: Oh, that's so cute.
[00:24:33] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: walked by. so then my daughter wound up assisting me the
[00:24:37] Chloe Ramirez: Oh, it's so cute. How old's your daughter?
[00:24:39] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: She's 11.
[00:24:41] Chloe Ramirez: Okay. Yes. Good age for assisting.
[00:24:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: And, and I, I even let her set up that my clients were all about it.
[00:24:47] Chloe Ramirez: So cute.
[00:24:48] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: my daughter set up some of the photos as well,
[00:24:51] Chloe Ramirez: She's probably so proud, right?
[00:24:53] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: she loved it.
[00:24:54] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah.
[00:24:55] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: the last photo of the session before the sun was like, [00:25:00] too, too far gone. it was her photo and it was, I, I, I inspired her with a photo that I set up, but she, she had, it's one of those where. she held the flowers like right, the bouquet right in front of the lens. And then my clients are in the back smooching, and you just, you see them and you see the beautiful white flowers all blurry and you
[00:25:21] Chloe Ramirez: Yes.
[00:25:21] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: it.
[00:25:23] Chloe Ramirez: But like that's so smart for her to like use an op. I, that's something I always forget I can do. Right? I'm like, that's like another level of creativity. I love that.
[00:25:32] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. Yeah.
And at 11, see, the parent parents really do help. I mean, she could be a rocket scientist, we don't know. Is it true?
[00:25:39] Chloe Ramirez: But I think there's a lot of influence that happens just naturally.
And my kids know like, whatever you guys wanna do, I'm totally down. Like, you know, I'm team you guys for sure. But it is really kind of a treat to see them enjoying the things that we enjoy, you know, whether that lasts or not. Yeah.
[00:25:55] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. s
[00:25:57] Music in Sessions
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[00:25:57] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: o I obviously. [00:26:00] You if you're shooting a wedding, music is out of your control. There are some people who put in their own headphones and listen to their own music and not the
[00:26:07] Chloe Ramirez: I don't think I've heard of that. I don't do that. That's amazing.
[00:26:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. and, but when you're doing a portrait session, let's say, are you ever playing your own music for you and your clients or playing music they want, or is it just you and them talking and There's nothing going on besides ambient noises.
[00:26:27] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah, so if I'm outside, I don't wanna like mess with nature. Like I think there's amazing sounds outside already and it can be really cool and it can disturb wildlife. And so we're in California, I'm not trying to like disturb the wildlife. and then in the city it makes it kind of hard. I mean, you know, those people that are on their bikes blasting their music, I'm like, I don't ever wanna be those people.
We're sharing a space here, so I just wanna make sure that we're all. I don't know, being respectful of other people, but in home and at studio. So at the studio, it's not quiet 'cause I rent from this really cavernous [00:27:00] warehouse and it's amazing. It's called Imported Studios and it's great, but it's also like.
It could be kind of sterile. You know, you need to add warmth into a studio environment. And so all of my clients receive a pre-session questionnaire. And if it's branding, it's even more fleshed out than that. And one of my questions, and people, when I teach people this, they're like, why do you have a music question in there?
And I always tell them, ask questions that will help you as an artist. Be in the right head space to photograph these people. Right. So for me, a good style indication is music, right? If I have someone who only is listening to country music, I have a pretty clear idea. I don't wanna put them in a box, right?
But I have a pretty clear idea of like how they might show up aesthetically. And then we have aesthetic questions in there too. If I have someone that's only listened to like Metallica, I'm like, okay, yeah, we're like, this is a different kind of couple. This is a different type of person, whatever that is.
So. You know, maybe it's books for you. Like my husband really loves movies. He knows every [00:28:00] actor known to mankind. He could just be like, oh, he played an extra in this and he'll know the name. whatever would help you as an artist be able to photograph people, like, do that, put those questions in. But for me it's, it's music and it's, I think I got steered away from the question, but
[00:28:14] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. No, no. That's the, you just, ha gave me an idea for something
[00:28:19] Chloe Ramirez: Oh, great. I love that.
[00:28:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: So are you a Chachi, bt, a Claude or Gemini gal.
[00:28:24] Chloe Ramirez: I used to be chat, and now chat just drives me crazy, like we're in a bad relationship. Like everything that says to me annoys me and I'm just like, done. Like we're breaking up. And then I've heard that Claude is really good from a few of my tech friends.
[00:28:37] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:38] Chloe Ramirez: one of, one of my best friend's husband, works for a major tech brand and that's what he uses.
So I feel like that might be the move, but I don't know.
Okay, so the reason why I asked is I believe has integration with Spotify. Head of Spotify.
[00:28:53] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: is you could potentially automate, where when they fill out your questionnaire
[00:28:58] Chloe Ramirez: I'm writing this down.
[00:28:59] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: [00:29:00] like that you might be able to automate Claude now
[00:29:03] Chloe Ramirez: I.
[00:29:03] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: a Spotify playlist automatically based on your client's
[00:29:07] Chloe Ramirez: Oh my gosh. Can you imagine that level of like, you guys all should do this, by the way. Like this is amazing. Yes. I'm signing up for Claude today. Although I wonder like chat knows me so well or so I thought even though we're like breaking up,
[00:29:22] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Claude from chat.
[00:29:25] Chloe Ramirez: that's perfect because you know, it gets your brand voice a little.
But then, I don't know, it just agrees with everything I say. My daughter was addicted to chat. We had to talk to her. We're like, you can't like you, you know? Like it's too much. It's thinking too much for you. and it just agrees with you. And the other day she's like, mom, I haven't used it like in a month.
Like, it's so, it's so much. But I mean, I love AI obviously, but
[00:29:45] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah, yeah.
[00:29:46] Chloe Ramirez: not for everything.
[00:29:47] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: by the way, personally, I use Gemini the most.
[00:29:50] Chloe Ramirez: Okay.
[00:29:50] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: but, but,I, I ta I try not to use chat probably for a lot of the same reasons. I just don't like how it's for applying lately. But, [00:30:00] I like that Gemini is so deeply personalized, across the Google ecosystem for
[00:30:06] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah.
[00:30:07] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I find that when I need really good answers, Claude is the way to go.
[00:30:12] Chloe Ramirez: Who, like you said, Google is Gemini, right? So what is Claude?
[00:30:18] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Claude is, anthropic is the
[00:30:20] Chloe Ramirez: Anthropic. Okay.
[00:30:21] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: own thing.
[00:30:22] Chloe Ramirez: Okay. Yeah.
[00:30:24] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah.
[00:30:25] Mentorship and Style
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[00:30:25] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Two more questions for you.
[00:30:26] Chloe Ramirez: Love it.
[00:30:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: As somebody who teaches and mentors, what's the biggest mindset shift photographers need to make when they move from learning to actually owning what they do?
[00:30:35] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah. So a lot of our magic is, is, is that owning right? Is that confidence? I'll see so many photographers that I mentor and it's almost, I don't know that I ever like some of the ones that stick out in my head to me. Are the ones where I'm just giving them permission. Like, you have the infrastructure here to take off.
What you need to do [00:31:00] now is be the person that's going to be able to receive that. and it, it's just so interesting to me, like people just need another human to give them permission sometimes, or someone that's maybe, like I always say, find a mentor that's not like leaps and bounds ahead of you, like maybe one or two steps ahead.
Because it's so much easier to be like, oh, that's it. Like, but we're someone who's like, you know, might be ultra, I don't know, like super like high end photographer will forget all those steps, you know, that took to get there.
[00:31:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:31] Chloe Ramirez: I,
[00:31:32] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: there's a lot of great mentors that, aren't as well known. The education space that could provide a ton of value for people.
[00:31:41] Chloe Ramirez: oh yeah.
[00:31:43] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that, yeah. I
[00:31:46] Chloe Ramirez: Even,
[00:31:47] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: yeah. Go
[00:31:47] Chloe Ramirez: even if they're not mentoring. So let's say, I teach flash, right? I teach photographers who are scared to use flash. That's like very much like beginner, intermediate. And if I was looking to learn flash, [00:32:00] I would look at the workforce like, this is the style I wanna do. So maybe it's like, you know, You know where you hold your camera and you put your flash up. Like I would look at event photographers. Event photographers are doing that like nonstop. You should learn how to do that if you're shooting events, right? I would personally just slide into their dms and be like, Hey, I really love this.
Could, could I pay you for like an hour of your time? Even if they don't offer mentorship? It's such, first of all, as an artist, it's such a huge compliment, right? Second of all, like you can learn so much from people who aren't. Necessarily teachers are promoting themselves that way, if you like, what they do ask and, and pay them for their time.
For sure. But like, definitely ask,
[00:32:39] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yeah. And go to local meetups of
oh, I, I say that knowing that I need to do that, Scott, I would love to do that. Yeah,
[00:32:50] Chloe Ramirez: yeah. But absolutely getting in person, going to conferences, workshops. And it can feel scary at first, right? Like, especially like the local [00:33:00] meetups, you're like, oh, I don't know anyone. And it's fine. Like, everyone feels that way.
So just show up as like your most confident self and just go for it. 'cause everyone else feels the same way.
[00:33:10] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Yep. Totally. Chloe, my last question for you is a question I ask every single person, and it is going to be a thinker. That is for
[00:33:19] Chloe Ramirez: oh, no. Okay.
[00:33:20] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: but it's a good one. Everybody's always like, Ooh. if your photography style was a genre of music,
[00:33:27] Chloe Ramirez: Oh,
[00:33:28] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: would it be and why?
[00:33:29] Chloe Ramirez: oh
[00:33:31] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: See.
[00:33:33] Chloe Ramirez: wait. I love this so much that I wanna like, I wanna think about it for like two hours straight. You know what I mean?
[00:33:40] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: usually have guesses and I am right sometimes, but I'm usually wrong, so I'm very curious what you're gonna say.
[00:33:48] Chloe Ramirez: Well, it's weird because. If I, if you were to ask me this five, 10 years ago, it would be indie rock and a female lead singer.
[00:33:57] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Ooh,
[00:33:58] Chloe Ramirez: But now, [00:34:00] because it was very, it was all natural light, it was very much in home, it was feeling and emotion and it was lyrical based. Right? This is a fun, abstract way to talk about work.
I love this. My mind is like, ooh, the ADHD dopamine, and I'm like, this is fun. But now I feel like my work is more high contrast. It's, it's leaning more into. The direction I've been wanting to take it, which is marrying that. sorry, I think it's the first time I've ever talked about the new direction of my work.
So it's exciting. it's taking those emotional aspects and working with people and like marrying that with like high contrast, flash studio editorial things. more concept driven, so, ooh. It's not hip hop, even though that's like been my like obsession for the last five years, I do think it has some sort of like, like indie.
Jazz [00:35:00] el elements to it because, you know, when you listen to jazz, it's either like, you either love it or hate it. Like some people hate jazz 'cause it's so chaotic. Right. But the, in the chaos, it makes sense, right? And I think that's the element I would like people to see in my work, is that we're taking all these elements that shouldn't make sense and then having some cohesiveness to it.
and then taking like those artistic liberties, I think I'm gonna land there, but
[00:35:25] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: Okay.
[00:35:25] Chloe Ramirez: yeah.
[00:35:26] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: You're the second jazz answer that I've gotten. The other was Jared Fincher. He also said
[00:35:31] Chloe Ramirez: okay. Okay. Yeah. But like the cool jazz, not like, like the indie, like, you know, maybe there's hip hop elements, there's like, yeah. Like more modern. Yeah.
[00:35:42] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: I was gonna guess that you were gonna say like a rock and roll, hard rock, like that sort of
[00:35:48] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah.
[00:35:48] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: that's what, that's what I, that's what I hear when I see your work is like
[00:35:53] Chloe Ramirez: I love that. Well, rock and roll's always my main love too, because that's what I was raised on. I was raised on all the classics [00:36:00] and yeah.
[00:36:01] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: so, so fun. This has been a really fun conversation. I'm so glad that we were able to do this. We talked about this in. It is April 30th, 2026. We talked about this. June something
[00:36:15] Chloe Ramirez: Yeah.
[00:36:17] Scott Wyden Kivowitz: at
that was like the busiest month of my life, by the way. I was like, I was like, yes. And then also, Yeah. Yeah. so I'm glad we're able to finally do this. and, I'm just, it's, you know, always, always fun to chat with you and to. To learn more about you, and especially being able to do this in a, in a way that you may not ever talk to people in this sort of
[00:36:41] Chloe Ramirez: No, I was, yeah, I, I was talking to my friend about it. I'm like, this is such a treat like I, And I don't even always talk to my newer friends about like my life and music and, and it was, like I said, it was my first love, you know? So it's kind of fun to reminisce about your first love a little bit.